Change to Airgun Laws in Canada - Nov 5 2014
Crudd
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See what happens when we elect, well, insert your own @&@# here...

https://nfa.ca/news/supreme-court-canada...e-firearms

Crudd
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2014 01:54 PM by Marshall.)
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Teach Russ
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This doesn't change what was already in place.

They were already recognized as replica firearms and any infractions caused with them were going to be charged as if the owner did it with a real weapons.

Airsoft, even if toys, are guns and should be treated the same way you treat a real firearm: storing, transportation and safety.

When they will make it in the law that we have to register them...then we'll know we are having a problem.

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Chef
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(11-13-2014 05:08 PM)Teach Russ Wrote:  This doesn't change what was already in place.

They were already recognized as replica firearms and any infractions caused with them were going to be charged as if the owner did it with a real weapons.

Airsoft, even if toys, are guns and should be treated the same way you treat a real firearm: storing, transportation and safety.

When they will make it in the law that we have to register them...then we'll know we are having a problem.

Actually, this is where you are wrong. This changes a great deal for some, and nothing for others.

As I posted on the FB Page, all airsoft gun owners are now placed into the realm like real steel owners of safe storage and transportation. The worst part of it is that there is no legal precedent set for what constitutes safe or legal transport and is left at the sole discretion of the legal system.

Many airsofter's proudly have their guns hanging on a wall. Now this practice is illegal and punishable like all firearms offense of a minimum 3 year jail sentence. This now goes for transport. How many times do you see a guy come out to the game and pull his gun out of a back pack or other type of bag. This act would now constitute concealed carry of a firearm and also punishable by a mandatory minimum sentence of 3 years.

It is up to the individual owner to find out about this change in law. So lets say the cops show up on your door because your roommate decided to bring cocaine in to your apartment. They search your entire house and see airsoft guns on the wall, with no locks or reasonable effort to meet any kind of safe storage. You and him can now share a cell in prison.

Again, for many this is nothing, for others this will be a major issue.

If all airsofters treated their toy as a real firearm you'd be well set and have nothing to worry, but this isn't a perfect world and not all airsofters do.

Greg aka Firearms Guy aka Message me about real guns if you want to learn.

(07-08-2012 04:03 PM)Moderate Wrote:  It'd be like your pharmacist importing cocaine, cutting it, and then selling it to you...it's still illegal.
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Teach Russ
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Thx chef.

I'll go shopping for trigger locks lol.

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TRMac
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(11-13-2014 05:51 PM)Chef Wrote:  Actually, this is where you are wrong. This changes a great deal for some, and nothing for others.

As I posted on the FB Page, all airsoft gun owners are now placed into the realm like real steel owners of safe storage and transportation. The worst part of it is that there is no legal precedent set for what constitutes safe or legal transport and is left at the sole discretion of the legal system.

Many airsofter's proudly have their guns hanging on a wall. Now this practice is illegal and punishable like all firearms offense of a minimum 3 year jail sentence. This now goes for transport. How many times do you see a guy come out to the game and pull his gun out of a back pack or other type of bag. This act would now constitute concealed carry of a firearm and also punishable by a mandatory minimum sentence of 3 years.

It is up to the individual owner to find out about this change in law. So lets say the cops show up on your door because your roommate decided to bring cocaine in to your apartment. They search your entire house and see airsoft guns on the wall, with no locks or reasonable effort to meet any kind of safe storage. You and him can now share a cell in prison.

Again, for many this is nothing, for others this will be a major issue.

If all airsofters treated their toy as a real firearm you'd be well set and have nothing to worry, but this isn't a perfect world and not all airsofters do.

Greg aka Firearms Guy aka Message me about real guns if you want to learn.

Hmm, Chef, Hmm.

If your roomate snorts coke, you shouldnt be playing airsoft.

First of all, the Criminal Code provisions regarding careless storage, use and transportation of firearms now apply to air guns. Therefore, it is an offence to store or transport an air gun in a “careless” manner. However, because the ordinary firearms Storage Regulations do not apply to air guns, air gun owners are left with absolutely no guidance as to what precisely constitutes careless storage of an air gun.

It will be left up to police, prosecutors and courts to determine what charges will be laid, which will be prosecuted and ultimately who will be found guilty of this nebulous and ambiguous offence.

Moreover, as air gun owners do not require a license or a firearms safety course to possess these items, law-abiding Canadians will not be put on notice of the new legal requirements for air gun use, storage, transportation, etc.

Secondly, the offence of “carrying a concealed weapon” now applies to air guns, regardless of whether or not the air gun owner acts in an otherwise lawful manner. Placing an air gun in a backpack, a pocket or other concealed place will now be a criminal offence.

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H0ppyDragon
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You should always treat your airsoft guns as if they are the real thing. Keep them stored safely, transport them in a proper case, and use care when you remove them from said case. If you treat them as such I don't think you will ever have a problem with the law.

I hope people will get on board fast, we don't need stupid people giving the lawmakers more reasons to become even more stringent.

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Red Devils Airsoft
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(11-13-2014 10:32 PM)H0ppyDragon Wrote:  You should always treat your airsoft guns as if they are the real thing. Keep them stored safely, transport them in a proper case, and use care when you remove them from said case. If you treat them as such I don't think you will ever have a problem with the law.

I hope people will get on board fast, we don't need stupid people giving the lawmakers more reasons to become even more stringent.

Well put HD. We must all do our part to be responsible. Without even knowing of this latest development, I had/have been building a "vault" for all the rentals......

cheers, OB

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Chef
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Food for thought. This is a discussion going on over at CGN, and thought it might make an interesting conversation here.


Criminal Code of Canada:
Pointing a firearm

87. (1) Every person commits an offence who, without lawful excuse, points a firearm at another person, whether the firearm is loaded or unloaded.
Marginal note:Punishment

(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1)

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


In an odd theory, wouldn't that make paintball and airsoft illegal.



*** Disclaimer***
I am not offering an opinion either way, just a point of discussion.

(07-08-2012 04:03 PM)Moderate Wrote:  It'd be like your pharmacist importing cocaine, cutting it, and then selling it to you...it's still illegal.
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TRMac
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(11-14-2014 10:45 AM)Chef Wrote:  Food for thought. This is a discussion going on over at CGN, and thought it might make an interesting conversation here.


Criminal Code of Canada:
Pointing a firearm

87. (1) Every person commits an offence who, without lawful excuse, points a firearm at another person, whether the firearm is loaded or unloaded.
Marginal note:Punishment

(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1)

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


In an odd theory, wouldn't that make paintball and airsoft illegal.



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I am not offering an opinion either way, just a point of discussion.

Let's just play airsoft and have fun. Debate debate and debate. We're not all lawyers here.

"The perfection have no the gun that lack."
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Marshall
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(11-14-2014 10:45 AM)Chef Wrote:  Criminal Code of Canada:
Pointing a firearm

87. (1) Every person commits an offence who, without lawful excuse, points a firearm at another person, whether the firearm is loaded or unloaded.
Marginal note:Punishment

(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1)

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


In an odd theory, wouldn't that make paintball and airsoft illegal.

I'm pretty sure they would not come and arrest 50 people at a paintball or airsoft field for this. The case would be thrown out when the masses heard about it.

At the same time they probably need to adjust their legislation. Or if they don't want people to play shooting sports that's a whole other thing.
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Chef
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(11-14-2014 12:20 PM)TRMac Wrote:  
(11-14-2014 10:45 AM)Chef Wrote:  Food for thought. This is a discussion going on over at CGN, and thought it might make an interesting conversation here.


Criminal Code of Canada:
Pointing a firearm

87. (1) Every person commits an offence who, without lawful excuse, points a firearm at another person, whether the firearm is loaded or unloaded.
Marginal note:Punishment

(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1)

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


In an odd theory, wouldn't that make paintball and airsoft illegal.



*** Disclaimer***
I am not offering an opinion either way, just a point of discussion.

Let's just play airsoft and have fun. Debate debate and debate. We're not all lawyers here.

Totally agree. I only brought it up to instill a discussion, everyone enjoys a lively debate (as long as it stays civil).

As per the laywer comment, well you don't need to be one to get the jist. As of right now, the old way of if you use an airsoft gun in a crime it was treated as firearm under the law, now it IS a firearm under the law. Rather small difference, but a difference non the less.

To continue to beat a dead horse, treat them like real and your gonna be good to go. On the other hand, as the quoted CCC says, if you point a firearm its a jail term and last I checked we all pointed our airsoft guns at people.........

I tend to look at it from a firearms point of view (and legal) because of my affiliations in the real steel world.

Greg

(07-08-2012 04:03 PM)Moderate Wrote:  It'd be like your pharmacist importing cocaine, cutting it, and then selling it to you...it's still illegal.
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sicksir
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Dont overlook "without lawful excuse". I woud certainly argue that if every party involved in the game were aware, before the commencement of the game, that they would be sugject to having a '6mm airsoft 'firearm' incapable of firing a .20 projectile in excess of 400 fps' pointed at them as well as fired at them, that would constitute "lawful excuse".

(11-14-2014 10:45 AM)Chef Wrote:  Food for thought. This is a discussion going on over at CGN, and thought it might make an interesting conversation here.


Criminal Code of Canada:
Pointing a firearm

87. (1) Every person commits an offence who, without lawful excuse, points a firearm at another person, whether the firearm is loaded or unloaded.
Marginal note:Punishment

(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1)

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


In an odd theory, wouldn't that make paintball and airsoft illegal.



*** Disclaimer***
I am not offering an opinion either way, just a point of discussion.
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ScubaC
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Okay I'm going to put an end to this nonsense about it being a crime to point a firearm at another person, especially when it pertains to airsoft...

Yes, it is written that such an act is an offense under the criminal code of canada. That is, to point a firearm at another human being.

That being said, if we were to take this law literally all of us would be repeat offenders by now and in jail, but we aren't are we? What protects us is a little thing known as "Written consent".

That waiver you sign, weather it's to play evil paintball or airsoft, is what protects your ass from this, as you are indicating your consent and acknowledgement that this activity involves such an action to take place.

*I've deleted the part about safe storage and transpo I had posted, simply because such statements from the NFA were hugely exaggerated and to be quite honest, false.

Until further notice, you do not need to treat your Airsoft guns as non-restricted firearms for the purposes of storage and transpo. As Memphis points out in the post below, the NFA ran wild with a ruling and essentially made stuff up.
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2014 12:34 PM by ScubaC.)
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Red Devils Airsoft
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(11-14-2014 03:28 PM)Connor Wrote:  Okay I'm going to put an end to this nonsense about it being a crime to point a firearm at another person, especially when it pertains to airsoft...

Yes, it is written that such an act is an offense under the criminal code of canada. That is, to point a firearm at another human being.

That being said, if we were to take this law literally all of us would be repeat offenders by now and in jail, but we aren't are we? What protects us is a little thing known as "Written consent".

That waiver you sign, weather it's to play evil paintball or airsoft, is what protects your ass from this, as you are indicating your consent and acknowledgement that this activity involves such an action to take place.


As for the new laws that have come to fruition, I agree that it really sucks and it puts unnecessary laws on a system of law which worked just fine for over a decade. I really don't know how this will affect the overall sale of airsoft guns to begin with, as technically a PAL license would need to be had to posses any firearm not classed as "uncontrolled"under the previous definition of what a firearm actually is. I understand that they are still going to be sold without a license being required, but I question and am concerned as to how long that will be...

Either way, I would highly suggest all of you invest in trigger locks, cable locks, and gun cases with lockable hole pots on them in order to safely and securely store and transport your guns in.

Although this may exceed minimum requirements:

-Unload (including the chamber) all guns
-Do not keep loaded magazines in the same case as your gun(s)
-Put all your guns in locked cases, and keep your bbs separate and out of visual
-Disconnect the battery/propellants from your airsoft guns before transportation or storage.
-Do not, under any circumstance, brandish or make your guns visible to the public or any non participant of an airsoft game.


Trust me, police have been known to get the laws wrong, by simple misinterpretation, and they can detain you until their superior shows up to clear up a situation. Don't be "that guy" in the airsoft community that disregarded the laws and gets arrested for "Improper storage/transportation of a firearm."

Unload, lock it up, keep it out of sight and you'll be fine.

Amen to that Connor, well put. No one has more at stake here than I do and Im not losing a minutes sleep about it or any of the other drum beating that's gone on in the past.

Coming from a family of Police Officers I can assure you that we air softers are way down the list of their priorities. WAY DOWN.

BTW, pics of the latest batch of premium and regular rentals are up on FB. There for all to enjoy, unless of course you are a "chairsofter".

cheers. OB

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Memphis
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OK, important information time.

First off, the major misconception is that something has changed. Our guns suddenly became firearms. Guess what, they already were. They are already classified as uncontrolled firearms, so nothing has changed in terms of how they are deemed.

Second, most people are referencing this NFA article, which widely misstates things for sensationalist writing.

Their first major mistake was saying that because of this ruling, the laws are now changed. Thats not how laws work. Laws change when amendments to the Criminal Code of Canada (CCC) are brought into place via bills and voting. So no, our guns didn't suddenly become reclassified because of a court ruling. Period. Fact.

The CCC still has this provision in place:

Criminal Code - R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46 (Section 84)
Marginal note:Definitions

[...]
(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:
[...]
(d) any other barrelled weapon, where it is proved that the weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge
(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules, or
(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or an energy exceeding 5.7 Joules.
[...]


The exemptions numbers above include things like transport rules. Our guns still fall under this provision. This provision doesn't say our guns aren't firearms, they just say they aren't firearms when sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act are being referenced.

This is a direct quote from the RCMP government site:

"These air guns are exempt from the specific safe storage, transportation and handling requirements set out in the regulations supporting the Firearms Act. However, the Criminal Code requires that reasonable precautions be taken to use, carry, handle, store, transport and ship them in a safe and secure manner."

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd...ir-eng.htm

THIS HASN'T CHANGED.

I would like to quote someone from ASC that summed it up rather nicely:

"The facts are this is a court ruling, not a change to the law.

The fact is the case involved a man (Dunn) who pulled an airgun on another dude while meeting in public (while Dunn was being investigated, so the incident was observed/reported by a third party).

The fact is the crux of Dunn's defense was that the air gun wasn't a firearm.

The fact is we, the airsofters, know better and this is exactly what the court ruled. Not some new law or interpretation.

The fact is the Criminal Code of Canada has not been modified or amended in any way.

The fact is this ruling could at most be used a precedent, most likely if someone else pointed an air gun or airsoft at another person in public. But the fact is also you should have expected that, otherwise I strongly recommend you consult the FAQ and/or Newbie Tank.

The fact is the NFA, in its statement, spewed a lot of bullshit about transportation and whatnot but the real fact is that none of that was ever mentioned in the ruling, the NFA just read "firearm" and ran with it, extrapolating its own conclusions -- when in fact the CCC explicitly defines low power air guns, including airsoft (which have sufficient energy/velocity to not be replicas) as being exempt from those rules.

The only variable in play here is the definition of "214 fps" (which failed to mention ammo weight, although reading the court ruling we find references to the Pig Eye test: if the projectile -- here presumably a pellet from an airgun -- penetrates 50% of the time, the weapon is considered being capable of causing serious injury). Does that affect us? Not really. If its a blanket 214 fps regardless of ammo weight it would mean almost all but the lowest power third tier airsoft guns would become legal to import (which I seriously doubt is the case). Otherwise its roughly the equivalent to 366 fps with .20g for airsoft, the difference probably being due to the projectile being pointed lead rather than a lightweight plastic sphere. But if this is what you're concerned with, you've already been exposed to it with every airsoft gun shooting over 366 fps.

And the final fact is that you don't have to take my word for any of this: this information is all public domain and you can look it up for yourself.
"

Hopefully this clears things up for people. You don't need to start locking up your guns or putting your bbs in another room. Until reclassification of our air guns happens at a CCC level, the status quo remain.

Breathe.

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(This post was last modified: 11-15-2014 03:00 AM by Memphis.)
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