Hello,

I am an AV'd member at ASC and currently enrolled in the Carleton University as a 1st year student. However, there is no airsoft club, just a paintball club. And so, I am wishing to start a Mil Sim oriented airsoft club at my university by the beginning of the next school year. A club in Carleton is entitled to a maximum of $1100 per year, and needs at least 10 members to form a club. However, there are 2 main hurdles to forming a club.

Problem 1 - Price of AEGs

Now just because I have a Real Sword AEG, doesn't mean people here can afford one. $1100 for the 1st year isn't much, but I have to get gears such as AEGs, Paintball masks/safety goggles, etc.

Problem 2 - Access to vehicle

With a minimum of 10 people in the club, I would also need a minimum of 2 vehicles. My access to the family vehicle by next year is uncertain, and I'm not sure whether I will be able to recruit a member with access to a car by next school year. Who knows? Maybe I will strike it lucky. But as a rule of thumb, I would roughly need 1 member with access to vehicle for every 4 non-driver members.

Despite these two problems, I am still willing to take a chance. I'm sure airsoft would be popular amongst University students, so I am totally willing to dip into my own wallet to get the club kick started. By the beginning of the next school year, I will need to purchase around 10 King Arms M4A1. After all, it is more economical in the long run to get an M4A1 with a metal body and good internals. Second, I will need around 30 of the cheapest PMAGs. I believe the cheapest PMAG is the Green Label 30 round PTS PMAGs. Finally, I will also be buying around 10 vForce Shield OR a model with similar or better face protection/anti-fog at an equal or lesser price.

The aim of the thread is mainly to throw this information out there, to see if anybody are willing to offer help whether it's services, information, or a deal. I assure you, in the long run, an airsoft club at Carleton university will not only benefit owners of Ottawa airsoft fields by increasing attendance, it will also increase the demand for airsoft merchandise in Ottawa, expanding Ottawa's airsoft market.

In addition, as I am new to OVA, I just wanted to know how many people here are from Carleton University

Finally, I'd like to set up a meeting to get Age Verified.

Thanks, and always, have a nice day.

Cifyra

You can find a list of our AV'rs here: http://www.ottawavalleyairsoft.ca/forums/thread-50.html
AFAIK there is only about 4 or 5 players from Carleton.

(02-09-2012 10:58 PM)Chef Wrote:  You can find a list of our AV'rs here: http://www.ottawavalleyairsoft.ca/forums...d-50.html.

AFAIK there is only about 4 or 5 players from Carleton.

Your link, its 404'd. Also, 4-5 players from Carleton is more than enough to get the club get kick started. I can easily recruit 4-5 more members into the club. Also, I would love to have them join my facebook discussion group.

Link fixed, here it is again, just incase: http://www.ottawavalleyairsoft.ca/forums/thread-50.html

Out of those 4 or 5 only 1 or 2 MAY be active still.

(02-09-2012 11:05 PM)Chef Wrote:  Link fixed, here it is again, just incase: http://www.ottawavalleyairsoft.ca/forums/thread-50.html

Out of those 4 or 5 only 1 or 2 MAY be active still.

Better than none right? I'm sure I can definitely get way more than 10 people to join. The problem is arming them all.

i know 3 players from carleton Uni that are active. They are all on my team actually. I cant really help you with your money issue but i can show you a new site for guns (probably the cheapest prices in canada now).
[link removed - no links to buy AEGs in non-AV'd area]

I'm at Carleton but not really an active player anymore; switched to real steel. Still doing age verification though.

Don't the clubs have to be approved by some group? Its just that paintball is fairly mainstream in Canada but airsoft is still quite a bit closer to the fringes (though definitely improving). I'm not saying that it wont happen but don't hold your breath. I can see it going either way quite easily.

Count me in for joining to bring up the numbers though even if I just fart around and tell old war stories

I'm not at Carleton anymore, but I'm an Eng alum.

$1100 will get you a lot of BBs and rentals though, several of the Valley-area fields offer full rental packages. In the first few years that would go a lot farther and spread the playing time between more members than buying 1 or 2 AEGs.

We also have a Convoy section to the forums for organizing rides to games. OVA members are stretched from Rockland to Stittsville and everywhere in between, so chances are rides could be organized for Carleton club members as long as they were willing to chip on gas.

Listen to Chef - get AV'd here so you can access everything and have all the resources you need.

(02-09-2012 11:34 PM)liquidsquirt Wrote:  i know 3 players from carleton Uni that are active. They are all on my team actually. I cant really help you with your money issue but i can show you a new site for guns (probably the cheapest prices in canada now).
[link removed - no links to buy AEGs in non-AV'd area]

This isn't an Age Verified section

(02-10-2012 12:08 AM)LUTNIT Wrote:  I'm at Carleton but not really an active player anymore; switched to real steel. Still doing age verification though.

Don't the clubs have to be approved by some group? Its just that paintball is fairly mainstream in Canada but airsoft is still quite a bit closer to the fringes (though definitely improving). I'm not saying that it wont happen but don't hold your breath. I can see it going either way quite easily.

Count me in for joining to bring up the numbers though even if I just fart around and tell old war stories

I am a member of the FACU firearms association, and I have spoken about starting a club with our president. He said he is willing to pull some strings to get us $1100 per year.

Honestly, I am not a big fan of rentals. Renting is like throwing money into a black hole. I'd rather buy like, 10 M4's out of my own pocket, rent them to players, use the money earned to buy those M4's off my hand and eventually save up for more M4's for club renting as the club expands. Using this system, the money generated from renting the club guns will increase exponentially and we should have an armory full of guns after 1-2 years.

For gear, I'd also like to do something called a "yellow brick road". I intend to make the club PMC themed so students can save on clothing. However, they will be required to bring their own clothing. They can wear caps, khaki pants, black pants, black shirts, whatever fits them. They are required to buy their own BB's. Of course, we need a cache of paintball masks just in case some of the future new members can't get eye protection (in time for games). The paintball mask to rifle ratio should be at least 1:1. The pmag to rifle ratio should be 3:1. And once those two are not in short supply anymore, the combat vest to rifle ratio should be 1:1.

Also, players would be encouraged to "yellow brick road" their own airsoft rifle, mags, vest, gears eventually.

(02-10-2012 12:57 AM)Cifyra Wrote:  I am a member of the FACU firearms association, and I have spoken about starting a club with our president. He said he is willing to pull some strings to get us $1100 per year.

Honestly, I am not a big fan of rentals. Renting is like throwing money into a black hole. I'd rather buy like, 10 M4's out of my own pocket, rent them to players, use the money earned to buy those M4's off my hand and eventually save up for more M4's for club renting as the club expands. Using this system, the money generated from renting the club guns will increase exponentially and we should have an armory full of guns after 1-2 years.

For gear, I'd also like to do something called a "yellow brick road". I intend to make the club PMC themed so students can save on clothing. However, they will be required to bring their own clothing. They can wear caps, khaki pants, black pants, black shirts, whatever fits them. They are required to buy their own BB's. Of course, we need a cache of paintball masks just in case some of the future new members can't get eye protection (in time for games). The paintball mask to rifle ratio should be at least 1:1. The pmag to rifle ratio should be 3:1. And once those two are not in short supply anymore, the combat vest to rifle ratio should be 1:1.

The problem with owning your own rentals, anyone who rents out guns can tell you, they arent always taken care of by the renter. Maintnance and such gets pricy even if your doing the work yourself. For the first year of the club, i would rent from feilds, 40-60$ a head isnt expensive. You can guage the interest the public, no sense buying 10 guns, and having no club to give them out to, or only having 10 guns and 20 members needing them. get an idea of what your demand is going to be and fit the supply accordingly.

honestly, the 1100$ wont get you far, its enough to get one person kitted out with a gun, mags, and gear. or get 10 people 1000 bbs for 10 games (100,000 bbs). or get 22 rentals from other feilds. or 3 club guns of a lower quality like echo1.

dont get Pmags for club mags, they will grow legs or break, and at 35$ each, that will get expensive, you can get 5 or 6 MAG 120 round midcaps for about 75$.

If I am not mistaken, Lutnit wasn't this tried before a few years back by a couple players who are no longer part of the community?

It kind of sounds like you're looking at this as more of a business than as a club.

10 M4s will run at a minimum $3K for low-end AEGs, and I'm sure the field owners around here will tell you that maintaining rentals is far from cheap. Renting removes the up-front cost and the responsibility of maintenance while the club grows to a point where the membership can support purchasing club rentals.

Looking at just the basic numbers, and assuming you sink all $1100 into product you're still left with a minimum of $1900 in AEGs and a ballpark of $300 for enough decent eyewear (that meets the insurance requirements of the local fields). The local fields rent a full set for $35 - $40 which includes the AEG, eyewear and about $5 worth of BBs. You'd need to be competitive with that price point, otherwise starving students would just rent from the fields to save money. At a price point of $30, you're taking in $25 after BBs, which would mean you'd need 88 rentals from a membership of about 10 people (so 9 games with full attendance) to break even on the up-front costs alone.

When it comes to maintenance, as a student do you have the time to put into it, as well as the requisite knowledge in AEG repair? If not, how do you plan on maintaining the guns? A $300 M4 will break down, especially when it's being handled by a novice renter - you should seriously consider a budget of $100 per AEG per season in maintenance (assuming you're not paying a gun doc for labour, that's just in parts and shipping), which tacks on another $1000 or another 40 full rentals, per season, to break even on maintenance.

So that's 128 rentals to cover up-front costs and maintenance, just to break even. With the current season schedule that means all 10 of your members would need to come out to almost half of all the Ottawa area games in the upcoming season - to break even, without making any money to put towards the future purchases you're talking about, assuming you do the maintenance quickly enough to have all your rentals available for every game.

Instead you could use the $1100 to give your broke, starving student members a free rental every 5th game they attend to grow your numbers. Once you have the numbers to support the club long-term and grow it, then look at rentals if you're still looking at making money off of it.

One last bit - do NOT bring your guns, rentals, whatever onto campus - EVER. The campus security take BB and pellet guns VERY seriously and it could seriously affect your academic career. It's not just a write-up. You could, without exaggerating, lose scholarships and even possibly lose your shot at a degree. Even on a first offence if the Special Constable isn't in a great mood that day.

(02-10-2012 01:40 AM)Chef Wrote:  If I am not mistaken, Lutnit wasn't this tried before a few years back by a couple players who are no longer part of the community?

Some guys (don't remember who) did try to make a Carleton airsoft team but it had nothing to do with the campus club system. Past that I don't remember much other than they only showed up to a couple games themselves and fell to the wayside. I remember them being crazies though, not level headed, logical people. The "vote from the roof tops" kind of people.

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As for bringing guns on campus I believe airsoft guns are specifically listed in the campus rules of prohibited items. My friend showed up once with a KSC G19 and another friend who was on foot patrol at the time said to put it away and never bring it back as there was a standing rule of automatic expulsion, no questions asked, if you where caught with an airsoft gun. I don't know if that is true or if the rule still stands (this was in 2006) but I wouldn't even think about bringing anything like that onto campus.

Organizing things on campus, gear and accessories, none of that should be an issue but definitely not the guns themselves unless somehow, someone can get a letter of written approval from someone high enough up that it can't really be countermanded.

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Personally I see M4's being hit and miss for a standard platform. Sure parts are everywhere but if you have to pay for it why not go for something with a superior design? AK series guns don't have weak ver.2 mechboxes and also rarely suffer from barrel wobble even when abused. I know Arnold has a dozen or more rental Kraken AK's but he says the plastic they are made from is brittle and cracks easily but that's probably because they are a cheap bargain basement brand. AK's also have the advantage of a more stable hopup design, longer inner barrel, and the ability to use large batteries without modifications. You can tacti-cool up an AK, add a splash of tan spraypaint, and you have a PMC weapon.

G36's would be another good alternative for base guns but they tend to be more expensive and can't use large batteries without modification/additional parts. They have solid ver.3 mechboxes, good hopups, and a very sturdy body.

As for general maintenance Lymbo's numbers seem logical based on my experience of owning 80+ airsoft guns from almost every brand. For an AEG that is going to be used and not necessarily abused but not babied either you are going to end up with torn hopup rubbers, broken grips, broken sights, melted trigger switches, and if they aren't the best quality to start with also broken gears, stripped pistons, broken nozzles, and possible bad hopup units (one of the most common problems with cheaper guns.) Not to mention a lemon rate that may see one or two of the 10 guns not working within a few hundred rounds. An average of $100/gun per year is quite logical. If there was some sort of pool of basic parts to draw from for really cheap it would be different but without any resources to draw from it would all have to be purchased.

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Why don't we start a pool where we demand all local players donate mechbox parts or else label them as elitists and try, in vain, to ostracize them from the community? Oh, wait, that's been done and the guy ended up having to shut down his field because everyone ostracized him instead
(Nothing against you Cifyra; it was a jab at an ex-airsofter from a couple years back.)

(02-10-2012 01:37 AM)Durak Wrote:  dont get Pmags for club mags, they will grow legs or break, and at 35$ each, that will get expensive, you can get 5 or 6 MAG 120 round midcaps for about 75$.

http://airsoft-club.com/shop/magazine/ae...-m16-black
These PMags, $7 each right?

(02-10-2012 01:46 AM)Lymbo Wrote:  It kind of sounds like you're looking at this as more of a business than as a club.

10 M4s will run at a minimum $3K for low-end AEGs, and I'm sure the field owners around here will tell you that maintaining rentals is far from cheap. Renting removes the up-front cost and the responsibility of maintenance while the club grows to a point where the membership can support purchasing club rentals.

Looking at just the basic numbers, and assuming you sink all $1100 into product you're still left with a minimum of $1900 in AEGs and a ballpark of $300 for enough decent eyewear (that meets the insurance requirements of the local fields). The local fields rent a full set for $35 - $40 which includes the AEG, eyewear and about $5 worth of BBs. You'd need to be competitive with that price point, otherwise starving students would just rent from the fields to save money. At a price point of $30, you're taking in $25 after BBs, which would mean you'd need 88 rentals from a membership of about 10 people (so 9 games with full attendance) to break even on the up-front costs alone.

When it comes to maintenance, as a student do you have the time to put into it, as well as the requisite knowledge in AEG repair? If not, how do you plan on maintaining the guns? A $300 M4 will break down, especially when it's being handled by a novice renter - you should seriously consider a budget of $100 per AEG per season in maintenance (assuming you're not paying a gun doc for labour, that's just in parts and shipping), which tacks on another $1000 or another 40 full rentals, per season, to break even on maintenance.

So that's 128 rentals to cover up-front costs and maintenance, just to break even. With the current season schedule that means all 10 of your members would need to come out to almost half of all the Ottawa area games in the upcoming season - to break even, without making any money to put towards the future purchases you're talking about, assuming you do the maintenance quickly enough to have all your rentals available for every game.

Instead you could use the $1100 to give your broke, starving student members a free rental every 5th game they attend to grow your numbers. Once you have the numbers to support the club long-term and grow it, then look at rentals if you're still looking at making money off of it.

One last bit - do NOT bring your guns, rentals, whatever onto campus - EVER. The campus security take BB and pellet guns VERY seriously and it could seriously affect your academic career. It's not just a write-up. You could, without exaggerating, lose scholarships and even possibly lose your shot at a degree. Even on a first offence if the Special Constable isn't in a great mood that day.

Lol how the hell did the paint club get their paintball markers onto the club fair in my first day @ Carleton then? Or maybe it's cause the paintball markers don't look like real steel. Honestly I will look more into it later, the specific CUSA rules and by-laws.

From what you've told me, $1100 per year either way wouldn't be put into good use unless that $1100 is used to generate more money. Free game every 5th game? It's like having 10 people stuck in a desert for 20 days and only 100 gallons of water. If only 1-2 people have access to the water, they both live. If it's spread evenly amongst the 10 people, they all die. There needs to be a way where people actually benifit from the $1100 or else it's wasted money, just like the wasted 100 gallons of water. Also, a club at Carleton I think, needs to host events.

I have a better plan.

First, lets assume 0 people in Carleton have airsoft rifles. Worst case scenario. Second, lets assume, I get 10 names, enough to get $1100. However, only say, 3 people are interested in running the club with me. I take a loss at first by buying, say, 3 rifles for now, and 3 masks, out of my own pocket. I hire them as a treasurer, a vice president, and a secretary respectively. First, I lend them my gear, and the 4 of us go to a game. This will let them know what airsoft is all about. At this points it sounds like I'm taking a loss right?

Anyways, a club at Carleton I think, pretty much needs to host events. I will need to negotiate with the field owners, maybe use the $1100 as a flat rate fee to rent the field for x amount of hours. They help me run and organize the events, and they get to use my rifles and masks in return, for the rest of the school year. Of course, they will be required to "yellow brick road" the repair of their rifles. They pay for the repairs, and I doubt they would mind. We host a game, earn money off ASC/OVA/Carleton students who attend the event. The reward for the club officers will be the ability to keep the rifles for the duration of their school year. It would encourage them to buy their own airsoft rifles in the future when they can afford one. As we earn more and more money off these events, I would "sell" my rifles to either 1. The officers who are paying out of their own pocket after "bonding" with their first airsoft rifle at the price I bought them at. 2. Sell them to the club after 1 year, making them club property.

Once this system is up and running, earning enough money for rifles wouldn't be hard. Same goes for face masks, mags, repairs, and vests. Those 5 things are pretty much everything that is needed for the club. Anything else, like BDU's, I will "yellow brick road" them. Most students have jeans/khaki/black pants, and khaki/black shirts, so it's not a problem. Each students gets assigned a rifle just like in the army, for the rest of their time studying at Carleton. They will need to pay for their own repairs, including magazines, BB's, what not. We provide them them the rifle, face masks, mags, repairs, and vests. I would need a safe place to store the gear, and I will also get some strings pulled so we can at least get a locker at the school. Higher ranked members of the club gets first dibs on the next batches of gear as we go along. Oh yes, there will be a ranked system. Not officially, but in my heart. Whoever goes to most events, contribute the hardest despite not being officers, will get first dibs on gears while the rest of them have to rent from the field. Or maybe I will promote those people to be fireteam leaders. I'll figure that out later.

Mind you, this plan hinges on the ability to recruit officers and the ability to negotiate a way to host games with the field owners.