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Seigetek gears
liquidsquirt Offline
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Post: #1
Seigetek gears
Has anyone had any experience with seigetek gears? & are they really as tough as they say?
01-14-2012 03:17 AM
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LUTNIT Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Seigetek gears
Can't say from experience but if they are good chromoly steel (not all alloys are equal) then they could be very tough indeed. One guy out of the US was making custom chromoly steel gears for years and was actually the inventor of dual sector gears. He was a small operation and I don't even know if he was an actual business or just a guy with a shop. Anyway his gears where rated as the toughest gears you could buy, period. They said the logical partner to his gears was the ver.2 mechbox out of the states that was milled out of billets of aircraft aluminum. Several Asian brands have marketed "CNC'ed Aluminum" mechboxes but they generally fall far short of the benchmark made by the US company. The SystemA PTW also has all chromoly steel gears but its not truly comparable since they use a 7 gear planetary arrangement instead of the 3 gear arrangement.

On the other side SystemA Turbo and Magnum motors also have chromoly steel gears and they are known for cracking and falling off the motor. Generally the harder a metal is the more brittle it is and vice versa.

One thing to worry about with super hard gears is their wear and tear on the other gears they engage; namely the rack gear on the piston and the pinion gear on the motor.

Unless you are either getting the dual sector gear or are going for insane springs well above any limit I've seen there isn't a point to getting them. Conventional gears can pull up to an M150 spring without too much special work so its not really an issue. In countries with no fps limit where they commonly run 700+fps I could see these being really popular. To pull the insane springs like M210's and the like you need super hard gears to not strip away over even short periods of time.

If you are going for the dual sector gears for really high ROF just know that these gears may eat pistons like crazy. Most of what I have read says to get 400fps out of a dual sector gear, since it only half draws the piston, you need a minimum of an M170 spring. Also since the piston is only half drawn only half the cylinder volume is used. That means if you use a barrel longer than say 325mm you may run into pressure problems. I only say 325mm since its half the maximum barrel length for a normal cylinder at full draw, 650mm.

My knowledge on this topic is quite dated (say 2007 or so) so there may be a lot of new information out there but it may still hold true.

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(This post was last modified: 01-15-2012 01:24 AM by LUTNIT.)
01-15-2012 01:19 AM
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liquidsquirt Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Seigetek gears
I'd be using the 14:1 ratio gears on an S130 for 500 fps and either 3 or 4s lipos. So yes it is an insane set up. The regular CNC 13:1 steel gears didnt last lol. Im building a SAW specifally for OPP and i want 30+ RPS. It was succesfull until i accidently left te hopup maxed and shot on full auto. The first bb jammed and slowed the piston which really caused a mess in there. I wont let that happen again obviously but now that i need a new gearset im looking to buy the best.
01-15-2012 03:35 AM
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LUTNIT Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Seigetek gears
Is it a CA M249 or clone there of? They are known for the hopup adjustment stripping the piston...

"CNC" simply means "Computer Numerical Control" meaning they where cut or at least partially cut on some sort of computer controlled mill, lathe, or other tool. Often when an airsoft brand says CNC they mean a CNC process was used to finish a cast part which is no better than a cast part to begin with. Unless it says what type of metal it is cut from then its sorta meaningless as to the quality. Also just because its computer controlled doesn't always mean its more accurate, just more repeatable.

Personally if I was going to spend that much money to attend a game I would want the most reliable gun possible, not the craziest.

Do you know how fast 30rps is? I only ask because I'd say 95% of the people I talked to about rate of fire where dead wrong about their own rates of fire. People would claim 25-30rps when they are shooting 15-20rps. The most extreme one was one player who claimed 32rps and swore to me he tested it on two different chronies and got 32rps. I would have guessed his rate of fire at around 14-16rps. Most players would hear a 22rps gun going off and comment on its total insanity. I had people making comments like I must be hitting 60rps with my old highspeed setups when I never broke 32rps. Almost all airsofters have no idea what highspeed setups really sound like. For example this gun is only shooting around 25rps and is still faster than most guns on any given field (skip to 48 seconds):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es8reRJO8...re=related

Apoc had issues with his CA M249 constantly stripping gears so he got the strongest gears he could find. Then his gun striped pistons like mad. His was shooting around 425fps with 25rps. If you get the strongest, most durable gears available your piston will strip. I did highspeed setups for a year or two trying to make it reliable. I was able to get 32rps but if I went higher than 400fps the piston would strip, no matter which one. Even the most durable pistons (of the time), the Prometheus hard type, would strip after 100rnds or so.

The only local expert beyond me I know of on high speed setups was Limit and he quit airsoft years ago and is now into car tuning and has a kid. I have seen him once since he quit but don't know where hes living. Even then his fastest gun ever was only 36rps at 400fps and it went down every other game. They didn't have dual sector gears back then so he would have no experience with them either. When I asked him about going above 400fps with that kind of rate of fire he said its not possible. Even the crazy airsoft tuners he met in Hong Kong when he lived there considered it holy grail level to reach 40rps with 400fps (without double sector gears since they didn't exist; now that's not as difficult but still difficult to make reliable.)

I can tell you right now the 14.1 ratio gears will NOT give even near 500fps with only an Ms130 spring. The double sector gears only half stroke the piston so you are only using the first half of the compression. With how springs work you wont get half fps with half stroking since its not a linear relationship. As I said before Ms170 springs in a half stroke setup would give ~400fps with .20's. You can get up to an Ms210 from Prometheus but I have never heard of any reliable setups using them. Also you can only use a ~325mm inner barrel with a half stroking setup because of cylinder volume reductions.

I have no idea what will give 30+rps with 500fps in an AEG. I have never heard of it being done and I'm not sure its possible to make it last more than a couple hundred rounds. If you do reach that it will cost many hundreds in broken parts for hard earned experience. Even then I can guarantee you it wont be reliable.

My recommended combination for getting near 30rps (maybe 25rps or so) with 500fps springs is:
-Ms130 spring
-Siegetek regular gears (highest speed without going dual sector)
-All metal toothed piston
-SystemA Magnum motor (Turbo might not have the torque, its only rated to Ms120 I believe)

If you want ridiculous rps but with a limit of around 400fps:
-Ms170 spring
-Siegetek dual sector gear set
-SystemA Turbo motor (only half stroking so torque isn't required)
-A quality piston with no less than 8 metal teeth (since they are the only ones engaged)

Also don't forget you will need to rewire the entire gun with minimum 14awg wire. Even 16awg wont have the amperage capacity for max power/speed on the SystemA motors.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the end of the day, my personal advice from loosing probably near $1000 tinkering with highspeed setups for a year, is that it is a waste of money and time.

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(This post was last modified: 01-15-2012 09:49 AM by LUTNIT.)
01-15-2012 09:30 AM
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LUTNIT Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Seigetek gears
I just noticed there are double and single sector gear sets in 14.1 ratio. I don't know if you are referring to the single or double sector gear setup so some of my previous comments might be moot.

The ratio is how many rotations of the motor is required to complete one rotation of the sector gear. So at 14.1 you are looking at 7 rotations of the motor per shot with the double sector gear setup. The amount of torque you have at that ratio is practically non-existent.

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(This post was last modified: 01-15-2012 09:53 AM by LUTNIT.)
01-15-2012 09:52 AM
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liquidsquirt Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Seigetek gears
The gun chronoed at 510 fps and im not sure what it was putting out but Im basing my ROF off of videos. It was intense hearing the gearbox go off though and it was noticeably faster than a stock KWA with an 11.1V lipo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sKH9USR2Vc this video claims a bit over 40 RPS. Ive been talking to a lot of gundocs from the states and the setup im trying to build was said to be "common in the philipines". To generate the torque ive been using a magnum motor and an 11.1V lipo 3000 mAh 40C.
just for taste heres the highest ive seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh-uQDdhWpw claims to be 73 rps.
Also for pistons Ive looked into the SHS full metal rack piston and almost every DSG setup with 40+ rps in the states has one of those pistons. I bought one at the beginning of this year and besides the grease it still looks brand new in a 400 fps setup with an 11.1V in my M4.
Im using a CYMA RPK lol. Ive got back ups that are very reliable (same guns i used all last year without breaking once) but after being to OPP4 and 5 I want that extra firepower for a rooftop. Theres just so many guys at long distances to shoot at once.
01-15-2012 12:05 PM
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Mini-T Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Seigetek gears
(01-15-2012 01:19 AM)LUTNIT Wrote:  Can't say from experience but if they are good chromoly steel (not all alloys are equal) then they could be very tough indeed. One guy out of the US was making custom chromoly steel gears for years and was actually the inventor of dual sector gears. He was a small operation and I don't even know if he was an actual business or just a guy with a shop. Anyway his gears where rated as the toughest gears you could buy, period.

These are those grears. Check out airsoftmechanics.com. RiotSC is the guy.
01-15-2012 02:37 PM
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Chef Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Seigetek gears
Off topic: Why do you want a 500FPS gun to begin with, where do you plan on fielding?

On Topic: I have found Highspeed setups to be kind of pointless. They don't provide much more and usually "cost" more on battery.
01-15-2012 05:25 PM
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Durak Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Seigetek gears
(01-15-2012 05:25 PM)Chef Wrote:  Off topic: Why do you want a 500FPS gun to begin with, where do you plan on fielding?

OPP second sentance of his second post.

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01-15-2012 08:59 PM
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liquidsquirt Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Seigetek gears
I dont care for having much over 30RPS. 40+ is when it starts to get pointless in my opinion. I just want to have the firepower for when youve got a 1 second window to send a burst down at 10 guys running across a street to another building. Being able to spit a shower at them does a lot more than just a few bbs, specially when they dont call hits!! lol
Any how I found this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1-aCek35_M
The uploader claims that the bevel and spur gear stripped (thats the noise you hear at the end of the vid when the gun stops shooting) He said he solved the problem when he switched to Seigetek gears.
01-16-2012 12:01 AM
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LUTNIT Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Seigetek gears
(01-15-2012 02:37 PM)Mini-T Wrote:  These are those grears. Check out airsoftmechanics.com. RiotSC is the guy.

Ah, good to know! Thanks, I didn't look into it too much.

Yeah if these are the RiotSC gears then they are retarded strong.

@liquidsquirt
That does indeed sound like 40rps and the 73rps video I can't say since that rate of fire was quite literally impossible until the dual sector gears where released. The only question is if there are any mags that exist that can feed at 73rps.

The Philippines is indeed where a lot of retarded builds come from. They commonly run 700+ fps setups there because they can and in order to compete against the average player they need to do that. I believe their average velocity is around 550fps where as ours is around 350fps (average actual gun fps, not average field limit.)

No matter what you do the build will more than likely eat pistons so just be aware of that. I still wouldn't want to run a build I haven't tested with tens of thousands of rounds to be reliable and repeatable in a game that costs that much to attend but that just my opinion.

Also from personal experience if you run max velocity guns are really high rates of fire (25+) a LOT of people will get really pissed at you. I regularly had people swearing at me and telling me off for running such a high rate of fire since you don't shoot people 2-5 times but they are hit 10+ times in the same span of time. If you accidentally overshoot people after they call hit (because they are at long range so they are still getting hit when you stop firing because of travel time) they can get absolutely furious with you. Accidents also get a lot worse with really high rates of fire. An "oops, sorry, didn't mean to hit you in the face" turns into "oops, sorry, I didn't mean to rape your face into ground beef."

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(This post was last modified: 01-16-2012 12:34 PM by LUTNIT.)
01-16-2012 12:33 PM
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Mini-T Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Seigetek gears
(01-16-2012 12:33 PM)LUTNIT Wrote:  
(01-15-2012 02:37 PM)Mini-T Wrote:  These are those grears. Check out airsoftmechanics.com. RiotSC is the guy.

Ah, good to know! Thanks, I didn't look into it too much.

Yeah if these are the RiotSC gears then they are retarded strong.

@liquidsquirt
That does indeed sound like 40rps and the 73rps video I can't say since that rate of fire was quite literally impossible until the dual sector gears where released. The only question is if there are any mags that exist that can feed at 73rps.

The Philippines is indeed where a lot of retarded builds come from. They commonly run 700+ fps setups there because they can and in order to compete against the average player they need to do that. I believe their average velocity is around 550fps where as ours is around 350fps (average actual gun fps, not average field limit.)

No matter what you do the build will more than likely eat pistons so just be aware of that. I still wouldn't want to run a build I haven't tested with tens of thousands of rounds to be reliable and repeatable in a game that costs that much to attend but that just my opinion.

Also from personal experience if you run max velocity guns are really high rates of fire (25+) a LOT of people will get really pissed at you. I regularly had people swearing at me and telling me off for running such a high rate of fire since you don't shoot people 2-5 times but they are hit 10+ times in the same span of time. If you accidentally overshoot people after they call hit (because they are at long range so they are still getting hit when you stop firing because of travel time) they can get absolutely furious with you. Accidents also get a lot worse with really high rates of fire. An "oops, sorry, didn't mean to hit you in the face" turns into "oops, sorry, I didn't mean to rape your face into ground beef."

Airsoftmechanics is the place to find guys pushing the limits of what an airsoft gun can do. Some of them doing it just for the challenge of it. The guy in the 73rps video is on ASM.
01-16-2012 12:53 PM
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liquidsquirt Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Seigetek gears
Sorry I guess i should of posted this first

http://forums.airsoftmechanics.com/index...pic=1208.0

thats where to buy them directly from the guy. They also have them at airsoft GI now.
01-16-2012 01:28 PM
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liquidsquirt Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Seigetek gears
I purchased SHS 13:1 gears to see how they will last (they were only 20 bucks). Ill post a vid up with the gearbox cycling. Ill also be chronoing whenever that thing comes in for FPS and ROF.
01-18-2012 08:45 PM
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Post: #15
RE: Seigetek gears
When eHobby first started carrying SHS I did the same thing - for that price, why not give them a try just to see, right? Bought 2 sets, put them in two different AEGs (both firing under 400fps with .2s). Blew up in both of them, lasted maybe 3 games. Not overly surprising based on the price - like I said, wasn't expecting much just wanted to test for myself. They'd probably be fine in an older TM or CA, when they came out of the box with softer springs at 280 - 320 fps, but I wouldn't expect them to last in a heavier cycling mechbox, especially with a higher RoF (thus higher temps).

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01-18-2012 09:16 PM
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